A more military Starfleet

[qerlin]

Haven't gone into Spacedock yet to work some of this stuff out, but here's some of our campaign stuff...

Starfleet's in the midst of an internecine fight between the older 'exploration-oriented, paramilitary-style' Starfleet vs. the Dominion War era new guys who are more 'military & hawkish'. The fallout of this fighting is as follows (for our campaign...)

1. Rapid Response is more prestigeous and grabbing bigger amounts of the budget (such as exists).

2. A more militant view on starship classification:
Escorts: Saber (come on, the Defiants blow the doors off these things...)
Light Fighter: we have a couple of classes out there.
Heavy Fighter: Peregrine
Destroyer: Defiant
Scout Gig: Talon
Light Scout: Nova
Heavy Scout: Rigel
Light Cruiser: Intrepid
Light Frigate: Cheyenne
Heavy Frigate: Steamrunner
Assault Cruiser/Light Carrier: Akira
Heavy Carrier: Nebula-conversions, Nimitz class (imagine the amount of fighters you could carry if you hollowed a lot of that hull out...)
Battleship: Sovereign (a LOT of admirals arguing over this one -- 'it's an exploration cruiser!'; 'it's a battleship'.)
Explorers: Galaxy and Nebula

3. Modernization program has seen the end of the following classes:
Miranda and variants (replaced by Intrepid)
Oberth (replaced by Nova)
New Orleans (replaced by Steamrunner)
Norway (in our campaign she had serious troubles with her nacelle design...)
Constellations still being used as trainers.

4. New classes of assault shuttles are being designed for the enlarged RRT mission.

5. More military-style discipline.

6. Dependent authorized status mostly for explorers now; less emphasis on the family with the crew.

Discuss amongst yourselfves. I'll give you a topic: Starfleet is neither a star nor a fleet. Discuss...

[COLWebb]

This has been a staple of our campaign as well. The USS Ark Angel was an Intrepid-class vessel that was about 30% done when the War broke out. The Admiralty had her quickly converted to a transport, and she was launched as an APA, or attack transport, capable of landing a battalion of ground forces with a handful of support vehicles. Her secondary hull extension added the volume neccessary.

Now that the War is over, Starfleet is wondering what to do with her. Her scientific and exploratory equipment was never installed, she has only industrial replicators (a kitchen was installed to save time and power), and no holodecks or other creature comforts save some video-arcade type entertainment machines.

Our campaign is also much more naval-flavored, with 8 bells to a watch, standing one watch in three, more NCOs and Crewmen, etc.

I like the more 'military' Starfleet, but I've always gone with FASA's old notion of a 'Galaxy Exploration Command' (The Fleet we see on screen) and a Military Operations Command (The Fleet we don't see).

COL Webb

[AslanC]

Just to ask a question, isn't the term...Archangel?

Ark Angel inplies that it is an Angel of the Ark...which would be an interesting choice as well

Not trying to bust yer hump, just want to be clear is all

[Phoenix]

Defiant, Distroyer? I say Pocket Battleship, or mabie Heavy Monitor.

[AslanC]

Why not class it as a Corvette?

It has always been one of those ships that defies placement IMHO.

It is very, very tough and powerful...

[COLWebb]

Yes, Archangel is the normal spelling of the word.

In our vessel, the spelling is kind of a word-play based on the transport concept- since the Angel carries troops, she is an Ark of sorts, and probably an angelic site to ground forces as she puts down, weapons firing, for a mass-evac.

It's also a reference to the last REF starship from Brain Daley and James Lucero's "The End of the Circle" novel, from the Robotech series.

[AslanC]

I did not know that.

Thanks for the info or the 411, it is good to see thought put into starship names.

[Cmmdr JT Wayland]

Originally posted by qerlin
Haven't gone into Spacedock yet to work some of this stuff out, but here's some of our campaign stuff...

Starfleet's in the midst of an internecine fight between the older 'exploration-oriented, paramilitary-style' Starfleet vs. the Dominion War era new guys who are more 'military & hawkish'. The fallout of this fighting is as follows (for our campaign...)

1. Rapid Response is more prestigeous and grabbing bigger amounts of the budget (such as exists).

2. A more militant view on starship classification:
Escorts: Saber (come on, the Defiants blow the doors off these things...)
Light Fighter: we have a couple of classes out there.
Heavy Fighter: Peregrine
Destroyer: Defiant
Scout Gig: Talon
Light Scout: Nova
Heavy Scout: Rigel
Light Cruiser: Intrepid
Light Frigate: Cheyenne
Heavy Frigate: Steamrunner
Assault Cruiser/Light Carrier: Akira
Heavy Carrier: Nebula-conversions, Nimitz class (imagine the amount of fighters you could carry if you hollowed a lot of that hull out...)
Battleship: Sovereign (a LOT of admirals arguing over this one -- 'it's an exploration cruiser!'; 'it's a battleship'.)
Explorers: Galaxy and Nebula

3. Modernization program has seen the end of the following classes:
Miranda and variants (replaced by Intrepid)
Oberth (replaced by Nova)
New Orleans (replaced by Steamrunner)
Norway (in our campaign she had serious troubles with her nacelle design...)
Constellations still being used as trainers.

4. New classes of assault shuttles are being designed for the enlarged RRT mission.

5. More military-style discipline.

6. Dependent authorized status mostly for explorers now; less emphasis on the family with the crew.

Discuss amongst yourselfves. I'll give you a topic: Starfleet is neither a star nor a fleet. Discuss...

querlin,

I partially agree with some of your ideas and suggestions, but I would also disagree with you on many of them. So I will give you my opinion on them.

Re: A more Hawkish Federation in general and Star Fleet in particular, extremely likely, so not only would be an increase in funding for the RRT's but also for the other Special Operations Units, e.g. the Rangers as well as for the Ground Force, but there would an increase in funding for more Tactical Ships in particular as well as more Planetary Defence Weapon Systems and Forces, both by the Federation as well as by the member governments, mostly in order to rebuild the existing forces and defences as well as to improve them.

Keep the existing Ship Class Designations and most of the existing classes, specially the Ships developed post-2330. All the remaing pre-2330 Ships and most of the War Built Ships such as the Yaeger (modified Intrepid class) and Curry (heavily modified Excelsior class), would be phased out of service within five - ten years as soon as they could be replaced by new built ships, both new and existing designs.

Ships that would be kept in service and upgraded out of your list, along with my favourite classes: -
Fighter: Peregrine
Escorts: Defiant & Capella
Light Scout: Talon
Heavy Scout: Nova
Light Cruiser: Saber
Light Explorer: Intrepid
Light Frigate: Cheyenne
Frigate: New Orleans (No way would I take them out of service, because of their heavy torpdeo armanent).
Cruiser: Zodiac & Niagara class
Explorer class: Andromeda & Galaxy class.
Heavy Frigate: Badbury, El-Dorado & Steamrunner (although I do not like the Steamrunner class).
Heavy Cruiser: Akira, Nebula & Sequoia class;
Heavy Explorer: Sovereign class.

As for new Ships and classes they could bring into service after the Dominion War, these are my suggestions:

A Size 10 or 11 Battleship;

A Size 10 or 11 Carrier (both fighters and assault ships);

A Size 8 or 9 Strike Cruiser (Same number of fighters as an Akira, but also carrying Troops, both Special Forces and Ground Forces);

A new size 7 or 8 Explorer, but with upgraded tactical systems and possibly carrying up to 20 Fighters as well as a platoon of Special Forces, both RRT's and Rangers.

New Cruiser and Frigate classes as well.

One way that they would upgrade the Tactical Systems would be fit the new classes with High-Yield Torpedo Tubes as well as Phaser Cannons. The main Phaser Arrays would be Type XII or above. (TYpe XII on size 7 & 8 ships, Type XIII to XV on size 9-11 Ships).

Ship crew sizes would be a lot smaller due to lack of skilled crew available and due to advances in technology they would need less crew anyway, but Star Fleet would almost certainly experiment with AI systems and robots as partial replacements for Human/Alien Personal. Also, it would very unlikely for a long while after the war that they would allow non-serving families and dependants aboard Ships, even Explorers for a long time after the war.

Any Comments?

[Calcoran]

You know, I really can't see the Federation / Starfleet becoming that militaristic. After all, they've already had their share of wars. With the Romulans, with the Klingons (with the Cardassians, I'd say it was more sort of a long list of skirmishes) ... and they've had the Borgs! And yet they haven't turned very militaristic. I mean, the <I>Defiant</I> was (one of) their answer(s) to the Borgs! I won't deny that the Defiant is a tough little ship, but isn't that a bit underestimating the Borgs? (or perhaps they were planning to have Janeway back ?)
If the Borgs can't make them militaristic, I can't see how the DW could have done it and triggered production of size 11 monster battleships and carriers.
Of course, YMMV ... I just thought I might add my 2 euro centimes .

[calguard66]

Originally posted by Phoenix
Defiant, Distroyer? I say Pocket Battleship, or mabie Heavy Monitor.

It's mission profile fits a corvette or destroyer escort... possibly a torpedo boat.


In reality it's an attack fighter... just like the Jem-Hadar have.

She's tough for a ship of her size, but packing that many components into that small of space means that something important is going to get hit with every shot that breaches the shields. An eggshell armed with a sledgehammer, if you will.

Her endurance on-screen I attribute to luck and creative license.

[Calcoran]

A bit off topic, but what the heck .

Her endurance on-screen I attribute to luck and creative license.

Well, if it's a fighter, one might consider that it's harder to hit, especially when flown well. And who flew the Defiant usually? None other than Jadzia Dax ... who'd dare to say here it wasn't well flown? (and I seem to recall Sisko commending on Nog's flying once or twice at the very end of the last season). Therefore, I'd say we can attribute her endurance to her crew's skill too . (/me silently prays for Decipher's ships having a maniability stat)

[Cmmdr JT Wayland]

Calcoran,

I have to disagree with you, I personally think that the Dominion War had a major psychological effect on the whole Federation, making it initially more defensive and a lot more paranoid about any possible threat to it. Therefore they would want to repair their defences as fast as possible and to build more powerful Warships to equip Star Fleet.

By the way this is a Euro-free Zone, only Pounds and Dollars are accepted.

[Captain Blake]

Originally posted by calguard66

Her endurance on-screen I attribute to luck and creative license.

Um, Ablative Mirandas (tm) might explain some of that?

Now, on with my ideas.

I don't see the Starfleet, "Get back to Exploration" drive allowing a wholesale change in terminology. Hence, I don't see them allowing a Destroyer. They'd want it called something else.

However, for the second time in 15 years the Federation has almost gotten wiped out militarily. It's only through the skill of it's personnel that it's survived this far.

Those personnel had to bust their asses to make it work, and if they had better tools to do that, then things might not have been so bleak.

For instance, why doesn't every vessel have Quantum Torpedoes as standard issue? Production problems, of cource. Why do they have production problems? Because the Federation didn't bother to ramp up production when hostilities were on the horizon. How many ships do you think could have been saved if QTs had been widely available, instead of limited to Defiants, Sovereigns, Intrepids, and DS9?

Giving Starfleet the best possible resources to work with to both explore, and prevent hostility is the top priority in my game.

Personally, I don't see a whole bunch of huge ships. The Dominion war, with it's Defiants, and Jem-Hadar Fighters showed the value of small, fast, tough vessels, over that of the uber mega vessels. Plus, it cost a lot to build and maintain larger vessels. In the post Dominion War, I see the Fed being slightly tapped for resources.

So, without further ado, here's my list of ships. Compromises abound, because that's the nature of bureaucracies.

Boats/Gigs/Minor Ships:

Fighter: Peregrine
Scout: Talon
Runabout: Danube

Military:

Escort: Defiant
Fast Frigate: Prometheus, minus the crappy MVAM idea, of cource.
Heavy Frigate: Steamrunner

Exploration:

Surveyor/Science: Nova
Scout: Intrepid
Explorer: Galaxy

Combined/Utility:

Light Cruiser: Sabre
Heavy Cruiser: Akira
Utility Cruiser: Nebula
Battleship: Sovereign

I also see the need for a couple of other vessel classifications:

Carrier
Troop Lander/Transport--this would carry Landing Craft.
Defiant Tender--as Calguard says, the Defiant is an Attack Fighter. This would be the equivalent of the Jem-Hadar battleship. It's designed to carry Defiants to particular spots, and provide support to them.

And, of cource, a fleetwide upgrade to Quantum Torpedoes, along with the Communications/Targeting package from the Prometheus to facilitate better intraship communication.

Alex

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland

By the way this is a Euro-free Zone, only Pounds and Dollars are accepted.

Oh no... Another Euro-Septic

Anyway... I am going to agree with Calcoran, but do see your point.

If the Borg made starfleet develop and build the Defiant, then I can agree that the DW may well leave some of Starfleet far more militant than before. However I cannot see the Federation accepting a more Militaristic Starfleet, this is all currently appearing in my game. The Militant group (the Federation First) wants to ensure that Starfleet is ready in the future, but still needs to hide its movements behind politically freindly terminology...

Hence; Enhanced Explorer and Escort rather than Battleship and Destroyer...

It doesn't change whats happening, but does make a more political background to the events.

Salisbury, huh? When I get my car we will have to see about merging games...

[Cmmdr JT Wayland]

Sorry Dan,

I am also an Acting Chairman of a local Conservative Branch and an Arch-Eurosceptic . Personally I believe that the European Union should be scrapped and replaced by a massively reformed and reorganised NATO.

But to get back on topic, I am toying with an Idea for an Experimental Advanced Tactical Explorer, that Star Fleet developed before and during the Dominion War, to meet Star Fleet's requirements during and after the War. I'll post it as soon as I can get around to fully develop it. If I can get sort I'll try and post a draft version tonight if I can.

As for coming down to Salisbury, you have an open invitation, however I am running & planning Star Wars and other D20 games at the moment, I am going to wait until the new Decipher Star Trek RPG is out before running another Trek adventure, mainly because most of my players don't like Star Trek in general and the LUG game in particular.